Quote: ThirstyMan wrote in post #1

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“I am for doing good to the poor, but...I think the best way of doing good to the poor, is not making them easy in poverty, but leading or driving them out of it. I observed...that the more public provisions were made for the poor, the less they provided for themselves, and of course became poorer. And, on the contrary, the less was done for them, the more they did for themselves, and became richer.”

― Benjamin Franklin, 1766

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OTH collectivists's economic and social policy slowly and steadily chip away at the individual's opportunity to remain independent and take care of themselves.